Record of Conversation between Chairman of the USSR Council of Ministers Cde. N.S. Khrushchev and President of Ghana Kwame Nkrumah and Those Accompanying Him

RECORD OF A CONVERSATION BETWEEN CHAIRMAN OF THE USSR COUNCIL OF MINISTERS Cde. N. S. KHRUSHCHEV AND PRESIDENT OF GHANA KWAME NKRUMAH AND THOSE ACCOMPANYNG HIM

11 July 1961

KHRUSHCHEV Permit me to again welcome you in the walls of our old Kremlin.

NKRUMAH Thank you for the hospitality shown us and for the opportunity to familiarize ourselves with the Soviet Union, an opportunity which we have awaited with impatience for many years. 

KHRUSHCHEV We are glad to show you everything that we have done during the years of Soviet power, and how our country has turned from a backward and poor [country] into a country of a leading economy, in spite of all the destruction caused by the Second World War. We have created our industry, developed scientists, and reorganized our agriculture. This last thing, is perhaps the most difficult thing since the peasantry itself was is backward, and because it is the most conservative part of society. Imagine that before 1861 our peasants were serfs, essentially slaves. My grandfather was also a serf. And here we, having such a peasantry, have been able in 44 years to travel the gigantic path of its reformation into an advanced peasantry keeping pace with all of society. 

But we think that we are still faced with a great many tasks, although the foundation of their solution has already been created. We have the main, most difficult climb, and now our ascent is going along a more level and smooth path.  Or rather, that ascent which we are now making is no less great, but we are ascending it not on а mule, but in an automobile. 

NKRUMAH I came here just to learn all this from you, to fid out how you could radically reform your country in so short a time. 

KHRUSHCHEV There is no secret in this. Read Marx, Engels, and Lenin – they clearly showed the way along which it is necessary to travel. You can verify in practice how a country is to be reformed by following the instructions of Marx and Lenin.

NKRUMAH This is what we want to do. Many of us have read Marx and Lenin. I have also read their works, and also all your works. Now our task is to learn from you how to employ the teachings of Marx and Lenin in practice.

  KHRUSHCHEV The imperialists keep saying that Marxism is dead, precisely because they fear its practical application. However, now you won’t deceive anyone with these words. You probably know that right now even the US President admits that the USSR is overtaking the United States. But what does this mean? It means that Marxism-Leninism employed in practice provides the conditions for the development of productive forces and for the growth of the people’s welfare better than in capitalist countries.

NKRUMAH We are sure of this. 

KHRUSHCHEV The Americans now only assert that we will not catch up with them so soon, but they already no longer dare to dispute the fact that we will nevertheless catch up with them. However, the question of the time is already another matter. At the 22^nd CPSU Congress we will adopt a new Party program. In this program we will reflect the tasks of Communist construction up until 1980.

NKRUMAH You mean that in 1980 your country will have already built a Communist society? 

KHRUSHCHEV No, we will still not have built full Communism. But we are coming close to it. Sixty percent of our wealth will be distributed through Communist channels. There will be a 30-hour workweek in our country with two days off. All children will be covered by a network of kindergartens and nurseries. All schoolchildren will be brought up at state expense in boarding schools. All the elderly will also be fully supported by the state. Every worker, peasant, and office worker will have a free lunch. All municipal services will also become free. Thus, more than half of all the needs of each individual will be met on the basis of Communist principles. However, monetary relations are being preserved, and the principle of payment for labor is being kept. But the proportion of meeting human needs through monetary relations will be progressively reduced. On 30 July we will publish this draft program for broad discussion in the Party and among the people. I think that this program is very good. It also provides for a big jump forward in the area of economic development. For example, we will begin to smelt 230,000,000 tons of steel in 1980. For comparison I will say that we smelted 71,000,000 tons of steel this year. You need to be told that we consider this number, 230,000,000 tons, arbitrary, considering that it is obvious we will not need more steel. If it is necessary to produce more of it we will be able to do this. However, in my opinion, it will be necessary to produce even less steel if one takes into consideration the rapid progress of chemistry and, in particular, the development of the production of plastics.  We plan to produce 98-100,000,000 tons of steel in 1965.

NKRUMAH Then you will surpass the US. 

KHRUSHCHEV I think so, yes. Generally speaking, we will possibly surpass the US in the production of steel this year inasmuch as they have a decline of production. So, they are actually helping us with their decline.

We are planning a big growth of labor productivity. In particular, labor productivity of the worker should double, and labor productivity of the peasant even quadruple. However, it needs to be said that we plan to achieve this without any overwork. 

NKRUMAH However, it is evident that some stimulus factors, material incentives, will be needed [to do] this. 

KHRUSHCHEV Unquestionably. In addition, the most important thing is technical progress. I will cite you this example. Right now we are using a 54-HP tractor, but we have designed the creation of a 100-HP tractor, much more powerful. Whereas the first tractor pulls five plows, the second [pulls] 10 and more. This means a doubling of labor productivity. Add to this that the 54-HP tractor is performing field work at a speed of three km per hour, but the 100-HP tractor [does it] with a speed of six to seven km/hour. That’s already a fourfold increase of labor productivity for you.

Let’s take another example from the field of animal husbandry. Right now one milkmaid tends 8-10 cows. However, in all larger scales we employ an electromechanical milking operation for the cows. As a result one milkmaid can tend up to 150 cows. That’s a gigantic potential increase of labor productivity for you. Therefore, I repeat that a quadrupling of labor productivity in agriculture is the task being achieved without excessive overwork and an intensification of labor. To solve such a task it is necessary to give the peasant electrical power and machines, and to mechanize his labor. In other words, this task should not be done at the expense of an increase of physical labor or the operation of muscles, but at the expense of a more rational use of human abilities, at the expense of the work of the brain.

NKRUMAH I agree with you that the main thing is in a sharp increase of technical equipment. 

KHRUSHCHEV You know Lenin’s formula, of course: “Communism is Soviet power plus the electrification of the entire country”. 

NKRUMAH I understood you without the translation. This is a very remarkable and famous statement of Lenin’s. I often cite it myself. 

KHRUSHCHEV What did Lenin want to say? He had in mind that Soviet power is the power of the people, and electrification means the ability to mechanize human labor so one could create an abundance of material goods.

NKRUMAH This is the only alternative. 

KHRUSHCHEV Communism cannot be announced by decree. The presence of objective preconditions, an abundance of material goods, is needed for Communism. If we declare Communism without the presence of these preconditions our statements will remain an empty phrase. That is why we are planning a 20-year period to approach Communism. But no less than 10 more years will probably be needed to build Communism.

NKRUMAH You mean that during these 10 years it will be possible to also shift the remaining 40% of the distribution of the public wealth to Communist principles. 

KHRUSHCHEV Yes, consider that then we will have a completely different technical potential. Therefore possibly a shorter period will be needed to perform this task at that level of production and labor productivity.

NKRUMAH Peace is vitally necessary in order to do all this.  

KHRUSHCHEV We think that it is necessary to fight for peace, keeping effective measures in [our] hands to keep in check those who strive for war.

NKRUMAH You are absolutely right. 

KHRUSHCHEV It is useless to walk around dogs and persuade them not to bite. One needs to have a good stick, then they will fear you and then your words will have an effect on them. I want to cite you one example. When Britain and France attacked him, Nasser turned to us for aid. We helped him, declaring to Britain and France that we would intervene if they did not halt the aggression. After our note Britain and France halted the war against Egypt in 22 hours. Right now Nasser says that he conquered the British and French with the aid of Allah. (laughter) It is asked why did Allah not help Nasser when the British and French troops were in Egypt, but helped [him] only after the intervention of the Soviet Union. Allah evidently only helps those who have a big stick, who can punish aggressors as they ought to be. We all know this well because we ourselves fought against tsarism, capitalism, and foreign interventionists.

NKRUMAH We have listened to your words with great attention and interest. We have a number of our own questions which I would like to discuss with you later together. These are questions of aid to Ghana in its struggle for a free life.

 KHRUSHCHEV I want to assure you that in the form of the Soviet Union you have the strongest and most irreconcilable enemy of colonial regimes. As we say among the people, we have already poured hot lard on the gates of colonialism.

NKRUMAH More needs to be poured. I want to tell you about the new maneuvers of the colonialists, in particular, about their attempt to draw African countries into the so-called “Common Market”.

  KHRUSHCHEV As it’s impossible to force a tiger to drink milk and refuse meat, just the same one cannot force a capitalist to abandon exploitation. Exploitation is the goal of capitalism, and no matter what names they hide behind, the meaning remains the same.

After this, at Nkrumah’s request part of the people accompanying him left and the conversation continued with fewer people.

NKRUMAH Now I would like to talk with you about the needs of Ghana. I have not drawn up a list of those questions which I would like to pose. I have talked about many [of them] with the ambassador of your country in Ghana present here, and I am sure that he reported to you about this. Speaking of those tasks with which Ghana is faced, I would like to first of all stress that we are filled with devotion to socialism and the cause of African unity. This is our main goal. Of course, we cannot say that we will correctly determine all the steps which we need to take to achieve this. But one thing is clear to us – these ideas cannot be put into effect without the development of the economy, science, and technology, as you have just correctly said. I would like to further stress that right now Ghana is actually the main bulwark in the fight against colonialism and imperialism in Africa. I would like to talk in this connection about the conference of the main leaders of the national liberation struggle in Africa which we held in Ghana just before my departure for the USSR. About 150 leaders of the national liberation movement from Kenya, Tanganyika, Nigeria, Angola, and other countries of those which have not yet received independence as well as those who have only the appearance of it, were present at this meeting, which lasted two weeks, and of course was held confidentially. It is natural that the first thing that the representatives of all these countries dealt with was a request to us for material aid. Of course, we help them commensurate with our limited abilities, but we cannot do the impossible. Just before my departure a meeting of representatives of Ghana, Mali, Guinea, and Upper Volta was [entered by hand: also] held.  We gave Guinea and Mali 5,000,000 pounds sterling each for the needs of their development. We were ready to no less a sum to Upper Volta, but we had no more money. Then we took this money on credit at an 6.5 annual percentage rate, offering Upper Volta this money at 2.5% annually. We are doing everything possible. But I want to say that if we in Ghana do not build a strong economy then they will bring us to our knees [slomayut] , and we will not be able to pursue our policies. 

Of course, we do not want to be a burden on the Soviet Union. Therefore we would like to talk not only and not so much about aid as about the development of trade between our countries. I think that broad trade on a healthy basis is the best kind of aid. I would not like to spend time here on a detailed discussion of these questions. I will now prepare an aide memoire together with my colleagues in which I intend to familiarize the Soviet side in detail with our proposals on this question.

KHRUSHCHEV Allow [me] to thank you for the views you presented on the situation of your country and the prospects for the development of Soviet-Ghanaian trade. We will undoubtedly study all your proposals and do everything that is in our power in order to give you the necessary aid. I think that your statement about the desirability of trade relations between our countries is quite realistic. This is such a statement which ought to be welcomed in every way inasmuch as there are genuinely unlimited opportunities for trade between our countries. Many of the goods which you get outside your country you could buy from us. We mainly trade without currency payments.

NKRUMAH I know about this. 

KHRUSHCHEV We do without dollars and pounds. We have our Soviet ruble. We also have material valuables created by the labor of our people. We are ready to exchange these machines, equipment, and tractors for the products of other countries. In turn, we have many goods of interest to you. For example, we buy natural rubber in Britain. However, it is known that natural rubber is not grown in Britain. Likewise we buy coffee in Britain, but coffee is also not grown in this country. We would be glad to buy these products in Ghana. In addition, we could be cacao, oil palm products, and much else in Ghana.

As regards credit, besides a direct credit we have also given you an indirect credit in a somewhat unusual form. I mean the promise made by the Americans to build a hydroelectric station on the Volta River. You of course understand that they promised to do this only because they found out that you were coming to us. Thus, it can be said, that the good half of this credit is ours. If not for the Soviet Union they would have given you nothing. 

NKRUMAH But they are only promising, they still haven’t signed the agreement offering the credit.  

KHRUSHCHEV They will sign because they realize the existence of the Soviet Union. But, of course, besides this indirect aid we are ready to give your country direct aid.

NKRUMAH Speaking of this aid, I would like to say in advance that I will not as you for the impossible. I understand your obligations and think that this can only be about giving aid for the creation in Ghana of comparatively small, specific, and absolutely necessary facilities without which our development is impossible.

  KHRUSHCHEV You of course understand that our abilities are limited, considering the program of our domestic development and also that it is to us that all the countries freed from colonialism are appealing for aid. While this is happening we admit that the receipt of such aid is a legitimate desire of these countries. We understand the role of your country in Africa and entirely support you in the fight against imperialism. We favor the continuation and development of friendship with your country.

NKRUMAH You probably have not yet read the speech I made in Ghana on the occasion of the adoption of a new budget. I will send it to you without fail. In this speech I noted and I want to stress right now that the financial situation of our country is not bad. Our national income is 550,000,000 pounds sterling, and the expenditures part of the budget is 150,000,000 pounds sterling. So economically we are in a better position than many other countries of Africa.

But, as I have already said, the problem is that we are giving aid to other African countries and territories. This aid is enormous, considering the size of Ghana. When this is being done it needs to be borne in mind that we are not only helping countries fighting for liberation but those who are already liberated like, for example, Guinea. We cannot continue to give such aid further if we ourselves do not receive it in turn. Otherwise, we are threatened with an economic catastrophe. This being said, we are firmly convinced that we cannot rely on the West as regards the receipt of economic aid. Our hope is the socialist countries. I want to again stress that if this aid is not given us the progressive forces in all of Africa might be threatened with defeat. 

I will cite such a specific example. In the course of the conference of representatives of the national liberation organizations of African countries of which I have already spoken it became absolutely clear that the solution to the problem of national liberation should go along two lines, the line of political struggle and the line of military combat. We created a center for training partisan forces in Ghana with this goal for operations in various countries of Africa. In a conversation with the ambassador of your country I have already asked [you] to send us two or three of your officers to help in training young rebels in Angola, Mozambique, and also such countries as Nigeria, Algeria, and others. We have allocated a special sector of two square miles for this center. We consider these actions to be very important since an armed struggle is impending in a number of countries. In other countries the problem of national liberation is solved within political and constitutional frameworks. But there we give aid [by] buying machines in London to print propaganda materials, etc. We give such aid to anti-imperialist parties in Swaziland, Bechuanaland, Basutoland, etc., territories under the rule of colonialists.

  Again I repeat that I realize those obligations which the Soviet Union already has. But at the same time I again stress that if we find methods to broadly develop trade between our countries then the problem of aid will be solved. Finally, last, what I would like to assure you is that our main goal is building socialism in Ghana and in all of Africa. I say to you with all sincerity and frankness that we will be faithful to this goal in spite of all the difficulties and obstacles.

KHRUSHCHEV I am very glad to hear these words from you. It is good that you see those difficulties which stand before you and are fully determined to overcome them. In my opinion, there are several phases in the development of the national liberation movement. The first phase encompasses the period of struggle for independence and against colonialism. This phase in turn consists of two stages. The first stage is the struggle to obtain independence. It often ends with the colonizers giving the country formal independence under the pressure of the popular masses but putting their stooges at the head of the government of this country. The people discover this deception, of course, and then begins the second stage of the struggle. In this stage the main task is to force out these puppets. This task is undoubtedly more difficult than the first inasmuch this is a matter of fighting their own countrymen.

NKRUMAH Yes, this is difficult, since the colonizers support their puppets with all their strength.

 KHRUSHCHEV However, at both stages the struggle proceeds along a nationwide basis against foreign colonizers and a small number of their puppets. The next phase of the struggle begins after this one – class warfare of the poor strata against their own bourgeoisie. You know about the Great French Revolution. It occurred under the slogan “Freedom, Equality, and Fraternity”. But freedom for a Rothschild and freedom for a street porter are completely different things. In your country, of course, there is a bourgeoisie, your own bourgeoisie, just like there is a working class. They will grow and unavoidably engage in mortal combat with one another. This is the most difficult fight since it is a fight not against foreign oppressors, but a fight within one nation.

NKRUMAH You are right, it is a difficult fight. Permit me to cite one example from African reality which confirms your words. You know that the All-African Conference of Trade Unions was held not long ago in Casablanca. So, during this Conference the International Federation of Free Trade Unions [MKSP] supported by the imperialists spent hundreds of thousands of pounds to prevent the creation of an African trade union association. The truth is, this work was not crowned with success. The association was created. It was characteristic that in the process that MKSP agents said that we, that is, those who favored the creation of this trade union federation – [were] Communists - that we intended to pull the African trade unions to the side of the World Federation of Trade Unions. 

KHRUSHCHEV We have great experience of class struggle. Of course you know that we had a Civil War that lasted four years. This was a bloody fight of Russian workers and peasants against Russian landowners and capitalists who enjoyed support from foreigners. The Americans sent a landing party, just as the British and French did. Fourteen countries took part in the intervention against the Soviet republic. And we won all the same. Why? Because Communists reflected the interested of the broad masses of our people. When this took place sthe ordinary worker or peasant often did not understand what was Communism, as he ought to. The peasant sometimes said: I am against Communism, but I am for Lenin, because Lenin protects my interests, and favors transferring land to the peasant from the landowner.

ADAMAFIO The same thing is happening with us. When we speak of Communism [or] socialism many do not understand us. When we say “Nkrumahism” this is more understandable to the ordinary popular masses. Therefore we call our ideas with this word.

NKRUMAH I would like to again stress that for us “Nkrumahism” is socialism.

KHRUSHCHEV The people will fight for their own interests. When this is done individuals are not always able to understand the high ideals of Communism. But it is important that the people’s interests coincide with these Communist ideals. This also gives Communism an irresistible force. 

NKRUMAH We have encountered this at home in Ghana. When we offered one of our programs many said that this is Communism. However, when we began to explain the specific provisions of this program the people said: if this is Communism, we like it.

  KHRUSHCHEV The imperialists ascribe to the Communists the entire struggle which the people are waging in various countries against their own and foreign oppressors. But this does honor to them, the Communists, because it is thereby recognized that the Communists reflect the sentiments and feelings of the broad popular masses. The successes of the socialist countries in economic and cultural development have great importance in this worldwide struggle for a better future. Circumstances have developed such that socialism has initially triumphed in backward countries. Therefore bourgeois propagandists have asserted that socialism allegedly does not provide material benefits, that it is the social system of the poor. Therefore the our most important task is to show in practice that socialism and only socialism ensures a rapid growth of the production of material [goods. In] the West they tell us, you are slaves of Communism. I reply to this [thus]: come to our country and look how the “slaves of Communism” live here.

NKRUMAH I haven’t heard such statements in Africa.

KHRUSHCHEV The Americans talk that way. For example, Vice President Nixon asserted this.

NKRUMAH Then for America it would be useful to have more such “Communist slaves” at home in the country. I think that America would gain from this (laughter).

KHRUSHCHEV There will be Communism in America. That is why the imperialists are trying to provoke a war in a powerless rage, hoping to delay the progress of history. Therefore we should give great importance to strengthening our army. Without the Soviet Army it would be hard for you to win your independence. 

NKRUMAH We know this. Without the USSR our fight would be meaningless and hopeless. We know that without the Soviet Union there would be no independent Egypt or an independent Cuba. 

KHRUSHCHEV I talked with our scientists yesterday: mathematicians, physicists, and specialists in atomic energy. They said that they can create a bomb which would have an explosive power equal to 100 million tons of TNT. And our missile specialists say that they are able to lift such a bomb and blow it up at any point on the Earth. This fact, of course, cannot fail to bring Kennedy and Macmillan to their senses. A week ago I talked with the British ambassador who was leaving the USSR. In the conversation the discussion turned on the conclusion of a peace treaty with Germany. I reminded the ambassador of Macmillan’s words, who declared that Britain would take a firm position with respect to the German question regardless of the consequences. When this happened I asked the ambassador how many atomic bombs in his opinion were needed to destroy all of Britain. He replied to me, six. Then I told him that he evidently belonged to the pessimists, inasmuch as I know that the optimists in Britain assert that nine bombs are needed. As regards our specialists from the General Staff they have planned several dozen atomic bombs for Britain.

The threats of De Gaulle, who stated not long ago his intention to send one French division from Algeria to Europe in connection with our proposal about a solution of the Berlin problem make a humorous impression. Naturally the question arises: if this division could not handle Algerians armed with knives, then what the hell can they do against us. In fact, what can it do against us armed with the most modern weapons in the world, one or even 10 such divisions[?]

Therefore we say: let’s choose peace and negotiations. If you want war, you’ll get it. But this means that on the first day of war there will be no Germany, no France, and no Britain.

NKRUMAH I think that this would happen even not on the first day, but in the first hours of the war. 

KHRUSHCHEV In fact only one volley would be needed.

NKRUMAH This strength of yours also helps us in our fight. If not for you the imperialists would have long ago cut our throats. 

KHRUSHCHEV When I met with Kennedy he told me that our forces were approximately equal. I replied to him that I agreed with this, but noted that if this is so then why do they pursue a policy not based on this parity. I said that the US needed to change [its] policy. Kennedy made reference to the US supposedly having a number of commitments. Naturally, the question arises of why give these commitments if there is no confidence that they can fulfill them. It is known that the US government has given such commitments with respect to Laos. It prepared a Marine assault group. Kennedy now declared that he allegedly did not sign the order about this assault group. This is wrong. There was an order, but it was later cancelled. And the Americans did [it] correctly, cancelled it, since otherwise corresponding actions would follow the landing of the assault group , on the one hand, and as a result a new war would break out like the Korean [War], on the other, but even bloodier and more savage. Therefore we tell the Americans – don’t give out commitment everywhere like the Pope gives indulgences (laughter).

In conclusion I would like to say again that I am very glad that you came to our country. 

Look at our republics and our cities. And then we’ll meet again and discuss the questions of the relations between our countries. Tomorrow I am going to the South to prepare for a summary report and a report about the Party program for the 22^nd Congress. I will be glad to meet with you there during vacation. I think that then you will tell me about your impressions, but when [you] do this without concealing those shortcomings which you have noted here. I want to again assure you that all the questions which you raise will be closely studied.

NKRUMAH I will try today to prepare a memorandum in order to pass it to you before you leave for the South.

KHRUSHCHEV Good. But if you cannot, then don’t worry. An aircraft goes there every day with all the documents.

GROMYKO And it is called a vacation! 

KHRUSHCHEV Generally speaking, I am the first slave of Communism. Trade unions do not defend me. What is the sense of me paying membership fees[?] 

NKRUMAH Our trade union leader Tettegah, sitting here, not only does not want to protect me, but on the contrary, criticizes me. 

KHRUSHCHEV I thought that only our trade unions were like that.

NKRUMAH I brought you some souvenirs from Ghana, they are being delivered to you. Among these souvenirs is a young African parrot. If he is taught correctly he will learn to speak.

KHRUSHCHEV I have many grandchildren. I already have a great-granddaughter, although she is so far only a year old. Your parrot will be a welcome gift for my grandchildren.

ADAMAFIO. I became familiar with some of your grandchildren when I was your guest in the South last year.

KHRUSHCHEV My younger son and grandsons are evidently there right now, too. You probably know that my older son died in the War.

NKRUMAH Yes, I know about this.

KHRUSHCHEV Inasmuch the time is approaching for our breakfast by Russian tradition it is already lunchtime, so all [my] guests are welcome to [go] to the table.

Present at the conversation from the Soviet side were: A. A. Gromyko, USSR Minister of Foreign Affairs; M. D. Sytenko, Soviet Ambassador in Ghana; and V. A. Brykin, Chief of the 2^nd African Department of the USSR MFA. 

Present from the Ghanaian side were: during the first part of the conversation the entire membership of the official delegation of Ghana, during the second part of the conversation: [Edusey], Minister of Transport and Communications; Adamafio, Minister for Presidential Affairs; [Kwaku] Boateng, Deputy Prosecutor General; Elliot, Ambassador of Ghana in the USSR; Tettegah, General Secretary of the Congress of Trade Unions of Ghana; Appiah-[Dankva], General Secretary of the Council of Farmers; Dixon, Minister of Defense; [Atta-Mensa], Executive Secretary of the National Cooperative Council; [Shardou], national deader of the “Young Pioneers” organization; [Welbeck], member of Parliament; [Amoako-Atta], Deputy Manager of the Bank of Ghana; [Ajimen], Chief Secretary of the Ministry of Commerce; [Oko], acting Cabinet Secretary; [Day-Anang], Chief Secretary of the Secretariat for African Affairs.

the conversation was recorded by:

1^st Secretary of

the 2^nd African Department of the USSR MFA

[signature] (M. ANTYASOV)

12 July 1961