Reception by Cde. N.S. Khrushchev of the Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces and Prime Minister of Sudan Ibrahim Abboud

DECLASSIFIED

[Handwritten: “Decision of MVK No.143-rs as of 4 March 2003]

COPY

Top Secret. Copy No. 2

“   “ August 1961

No._______

reception by Cde. N.S. Khrushchev

of the Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces and Prime Minister of Sudan Ibrahim ABBOUD

On July 22nd of this year, Cde. N.S. Khrushchev hosted a dinner in honor of Ibrahim Abboud and his entourage: member of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, Minister of Public Works and Natural Resources Major General Ahmed Rida Farid, Minister of Finance Abdul Majid Ahmed, Minister of Foreign Affairs Ahmed Kheir and Minister of Agriculture, Irrigation and Hydroelectric Power Mecca al-Manna.

The dinner was attended by Deputy Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR N. Bayramov, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of the USSR A.L. Orlov, Head of the Middle East Department of the USSR Ministry of Foreign Affairs E.D. Kiselev, Army General G.K. Malandin, Deputy Head of the Protocol Department of the USSR Ministry of Foreign Affairs K.N. Kolychev, USSR Ambassador to Sudan M.A. Silin, Chairman of the Sochi City Council A.N. Churkin and Secretary of the Sochi City Committee of the CPSU S.F. Medunov.

After lunch, N.S. Khrushchev had a conversation with I. Abboud and his entourage.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: The Soviet Union is willing to establish and strengthen friendly relations with Sudan. We do not have any intention of acquiring foreign territory or seek to gain any economic advantages at the expense of other nations. We want to develop our economic relations on a mutually beneficial basis. Each of our countries should be able to purchase and sell whatever they can and want to trade. We are prepared to trade with Sudan based on the world prices.

I. ABBOUD: This is very good.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: We have ample opportunities to develop trade with Sudan and these opportunities will grow and develop every year.

On 30 July of this year, the CPSU will release a new program for the next 20 years, that is, until 1980. In this program we set ambitious economic goals for ourselves. Let me give you just one example: the program aims to increase steel production in the country to 250 million tons by 1980. This year we will produce 71 million tons of steel, that is, 6 million tons more than last year. I assume it is unlikely that we will need that much steel – 250 million tons, since we will be producing steel substitutes from plastic and other chemical products on a large scale.

I hope that you will read our program and see the ambitious goals we have set for ourselves. The program provides, in particular, that children of all ages will receive education and upbringing free of charge, at the expense of the state. A wide network of boarding houses for pensioners will be created. We will introduce free lunches for workers and clerical personnel, eliminate rent and utility fees (water, transportation, electricity, etc.). The working day of workers and clerical personnel will be reduced to 6 hours, and a five-hour working day will be introduced for workers in heavy professions – miners, metal workers, etc., with two days off a week. Free vacations will be increased to 3-4 weeks.

In 1980, we will surpass the United States twice in terms of production per capita.

FARID: How many hours a day do workers and clerical personnel currently work in the Soviet Union?

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: 7 and 6 hours, depending on the profession. I am a former miner, and if I had continued to work in the mine, my working day would have been only 6 hours. However, now as the Chairman of the Council of Ministers, I have to work 12 hours a day, which is almost as much as before the revolution. It turns out that under the capitalists I worked less, and now the Soviet government is “exploiting” me.

MAJID AHMED: The program is magnificent and can be considered a miracle of the 20th century. The most remarkable thing, in my opinion, is that you can increase people's welfare while reducing the working day.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: Yes, the program is excellent, but I’m afraid that you will have to read it secretly in Sudan so that you will not be accused of communist views. How is it possible: you read communist propaganda while you put your own communists in prison?

KHEIR: The current situation in Sudan is different from what you are saying. 

I. ABBOUD: It’s not like that. We imprison communists for collaborating with feudal lords and betraying the country's interests. These individuals are corrupt.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: The same thing was said about Lenin. Our bourgeoisie, for example, shouted that Lenin had sold out to the Germans, that he was a “German spy,” because Lenin opposed the war with Germany. During the First World War, the German Emperor Wilhelm II – an ardent enemy of the communists – permitted Lenin and a group of comrades to travel through Germany from Geneva to Sweden, from where Vladimir Ilyich wanted to proceed to Russia. Wilhelm believed that Lenin would assist Germany in the war with his anti-war activities. Indeed, Lenin arrived in Sweden via Germany, and the bourgeoisie used this fact to declare Lenin a “German spy.” However, despite the slander, the people continued to support Lenin. Now you can see for yourself whose “agent” Lenin was. Everything you see in our country, all our achievements, is Lenin; this is the Communist Party.

We do not hide the fact that there are bad people, such as thieves and idlers, among the communists, including those in the Soviet Union. We expel such people from the party and put them in prison. But the main thing is the Communist Party and its great goals.

The entire imperialist world is already trembling before us. Give us another 20 years, and the imperialists will crawl before us on their bellies. Now, they are threatening us due to the fact that we want to conclude a peace treaty with Germany. Who are they threatening?! De Gaulle threatens to put the French divisions on alert, so he can threaten all he wants! Will it really be easier for the French to fight with us than with the Algerians? For 6 years they had been struggling to deal with Algerian patriots fighting for their independence, while we can turn France, England and West Germany into a cemetery in just one hour. I recently told the British ambassador that, if necessary, we will deploy 300 divisions, but we will not need that many divisions. Now we have atomic bombs and missiles!

The imperialists threaten us, but we are not scared and we will sign a peace treaty with Germany even if they do not sign it. President Kennedy, during our meeting in Vienna, spoke about the “rights of the West” in Berlin. We do not recognize their rights. If violent action is taken, our troops will give a worthy response. If the imperialists send their planes to West Berlin, we will shoot them down. This is not Bizerte!

Let the imperialists make noise! You won't get us with noise! Now imperialism resembles a decrepit old man who is chasing a young girl but cannot do anything – he does not have enough strength.

During the Suez crisis of 1956, we joked that the Egyptians were pulling the English lion by the tail. My friend Nasser at that time said that we helped him, and later he began to claim that it was not the Soviet Union that was helping him, but only Allah alone. Why don't Muslim Algerians defeat the French with the help of Allah? Allah is Allah, but in addition to it you also need to have missiles.

I kindly request you, dear guests, not to take offense at my words. I used to be a religious person before I started working in the mine. The mine turned me into an atheist. Everyone went to church – both poor and rich, and I used to wonder why some people do not work but eat, and I work but starve. Why does Allah give money to the rich but not me? I am an honest person, I work hard, and God is only helping the swindler and the robber.

But as you can see, we achieved everything on our own, without the help of God. We have a slogan – whoever doesn’t work, doesn’t eat. There are still swindlers in our country, but we shoot them. Most recently, we sentenced to death swindlers who speculated in foreign currency and thereby caused damage to our state.

KHEIR: Such people betray the interests of their people; they are national traitors.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: Absolutely right, these are enemies of the people. For example, I am now drinking coffee that was collected by the peasants of Ghana or Sudan or another country. The peasants sweat blood over it. And I believe that I must help them for this coffee, otherwise I will turn out to be a robber. This attitude towards the work of other people is communism. But you, gentlemen, will not understand this because you oppose communism.

I. ABBOUD: We understand you very well.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: Let us hope that is the case.

We pay a lot of money to our intelligentsia, because we believe that they deserve it. If one person, for example, chops wood and another invents machines that make the work of thousands of people easier, then it would be fair to pay more for the work of such an inventor. Our scientists live better than scientists in capitalist countries. The Soviet people know how to appreciate the work of their scientists. It is necessary to put swindlers and fools in prison, but you put communists instead.

I. ABBOUD: We consider those who work for the benefit of their Motherland to be good citizens; those who do not want to work for the interests of their country are enemies.

MAJID AHMED: We do not put people in prison because they are communists, we prosecute the enemies of the motherland.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: The way you are acting, gentlemen, our tsar used to act. I do not think we should delve further into this matter. What you do in Sudan is your internal affair. Time will pass and everything will change, history will assign everything its rightful place. It relentlessly supports what is just and overthrows what is unjust.

For example, let us look at the Soviet Union. Currently, we graduate three times more engineers per year than the Americans. It's quite clear that the future belongs to those who possess knowledge.

Currently America is wealthier than us, but it was we who sent the first man into space, and in the USA they jump like a frog. Is it possible to compare Gagarin's flight around the Earth with Shepard's jump? Here's competition for you! After all, the Americans have more money and they are no stupider than us.

KHEIR: American monopolies and companies are to blame for this.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: So this is what the government system is. Our system is Lenin’s [doctrine], it is the communism that you are fighting against. Hope my honesty does not offend you. I engage in communist propaganda and I cannot help but do this, because I am a communist.

KHEIR: We are not offended by you. Your ambassador, Mr. Silin, tells us the same thing every day.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: If this is so, then we will recall our ambassador because he has no right to say such things. I am telling you, gentlemen, all this as a host to his guests and for your information only. You can listen to me or not, it is up to you.

I. ABBOUD:  You are saying very interesting things, and frankly we are listening to you with great attention.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: Of course, you and I have different views, but I think that the main thing is not to ruin our relationship. I will not turn you into communists just as you will not make me an anti-communist.

KHEIR: Who knows?

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: There are many examples when ardent reactionaries and enemies of the communists eventually admitted that they [the communists] were right and even became communists themselves. In this regard, I would like to give you the following very instructive example. Before the revolution in Russia there was a State Duma, the overwhelming majority of which consisted of representatives of the exploiting classes. Among the figures of the Duma, three deputies stood out for their reactionism – Shulgin, Markov the 2nd and Purishkevich, who were referred to as "bisons". All of them were staunch supporters of absolute monarchy. After the revolution, Shulgin and Guchkov went to Tsar Nicholas II to accept his abdication and declared his brother Mikhail tsar. As you know, the revolution overthrew both Nicholas II and Michael.

During the Civil War, Shulgin sided with the whites and fled abroad with them. Soon after the civil war ended, Shulgin came back to our country illegally and, upon returning abroad, wrote the book “Year 20” – very interesting and truthful. Lenin read this book and ordered its publication in our country. In the late twenties, Shulgin secretly returned to us for the second time and again wrote the book “Three Capitals”. This book was very bad.

During World War II, our troops captured Shulgin. He was taken to the Soviet Union and sentenced to 20 years. Eight years ago he was released. He is already a very old man. Now he lives in Yaroslavl in a nursing home. He wrote me a magnificent letter which said in part: “I am a prehistoric animal, they called me a bison. I have fought against the communists all my life and now I admire your successes.” Shulgin admitted that the communists were right. This letter was published in our newspapers. Shulgin wrote two letters to Russian immigrants that were published in the USA and other capitalist countries. Now, as I was told, he has written a third letter. He writes about the huge accomplishments of the Soviet people achieved under the leadership of the Communist Party. And all that despite of the fact that Shulgin was a staunch enemy of the communists, he considered them thieves and slackers, just as you do. You see how things can turn out in history.

I once knew a renowned professor who was against communism. During the Great Patriotic War, he wrote me a letter requesting to be accepted in the Communist Party. He had developed a new technique for melting steel for tanks and thereby helped the Motherland defeat its enemies. This man's first [Handwritten: “last”] name is Paton. We accepted him into the Communist Party.

I once knew a foreign communist – a major revolutionary figure. He spent 16 years in prison. We exchanged him for [Handwritten: “anti-Soviet agents who were sent to us and arrested by our authorities”]. When he arrived at our border, one of the gendarmes accompanying him shook his hand and said, "Remember me when you become prime minister." This communist was Cde. Rakosi, and he actually became the Prime Minister of the Hungarian People's Republic after the Second World War. This is what history is – a very complex thing.

If you, gentlemen, encounter any difficulties, contact me, I will provide a recommendation stating that you are not bad people and that good relations have been established between us.

I. ABBOUD: We love and value honesty and, therefore, consider conversations with you to be a good lesson for us.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: This is good. We have come a difficult but wonderful path. I've been in the party for a long time. If I lived in Sudan, I would be in prison.

KHEIR: And in the end, you would become the prime minister.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: Right. And after the revolution in Sudan, I would have hired you as my deputy. General Farid would be appointed Minister of Defense. Let Mr. Abboud remain president, we would be able to come to an agreement with him.

KHEIR: We can try to do this now. Did you join the Communist Party after the revolution?

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: After the revolution. Until 1917, I participated in revolutionary activities but I was not a member of the party. Look at our government: before the revolution I worked as a miner, my deputies were workers. Now they all have higher education. Before the revolution, I graduated from a parochial school. After the revolution, I studied at a high school, then at the Industrial Academy, but I couldn't complete my education – the party sent me to work. As a boy of 8 years old, I used to herd sheep for a landowner, calves for a mine owner, and worked as an ox driver. At the age of 15, I began working in a mine owned by a French capitalist, and worked in a factory for a German chemical plant, owned by a Belgian capitalist. The revolution swept them all away. I went through good universities in my life, became a communist and, as you can see, I’m not complaining, we live well.

I. ABBOUD: You live very well.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: My grandfather was a serf to a landowner in the Kursk province, I was a miner, and became the head of government. This is what Lenin, the “spy”, as you call your communists, gave us.

I. ABBOUD: We don't call them that.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: Lenin was called a "German spy." We will send you the film to Khartoum. In this film about the revolution in Russia you will see crowds of people shouting that Lenin is a "German spy".

I. ABBOUD: We in Sudan are now talking about the great Leninist principles.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: Your grandchildren will talk about Sudanese communists as true patriots of their country.

While I was in the USA, Americans scolded me for telling them that their grandchildren would live under communism. They forget that workers and peasants are a powerful force who will ultimately own everything.

I will tell you, gentlemen, about my conversation with Nasser when he visited the Soviet Union. Nasser is an intelligent man, but he is a nationalist and does not understand much. His biggest flaw is that he considers himself smarter than everyone else. He probably says the same thing about me. He and I are people of different beliefs and views, but this does not prevent us from maintaining good relations with each other and understanding each other whenever we meet. History will be our judge.

KHEIR: We understand you too, which means we can say that you understand us too.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: Not quite. I respect you, but to tell you the truth, we are very different people.

I asked Nasser whose interests he represents. He replied that he defends Arab interests, that is, of all Arabs.

I told him that it is impossible. I am Russian, but I do not defend all Russians. There are Russians who oppose [Handwritten: “us”] both abroad and, I will not hide it, within the country. I consider such Russians to be [Handwritten: “class”] enemies, and I fight against them. Why do you, Mr. Nasser, think that you are protecting all Arabs without exception? Nasser answered me that he was fighting for Arab unity.

But the Arabs can only achieve unity when they struggle against foreign invaders for their independence. So you, Mr. Abboud, fought against the British because you considered them invaders and, together with all honest people, fought against them. Nasser has a good trait – his hatred of imperialists. This is good, but it is not enough.

We believe that the French will be expelled from Algeria and then the question will arise about what kind of social system will be established in Algeria.

In your country [Handwritten: “- I told Nasser”] – there are feudal lords and there are fellahs, there are capitalists and there are workers and productive intelligentsia. Fellah only sees the land in his dreams, and the feudal lord thinks only about his own selfish interests and profits. This means there is no unity, no community. The worker thinks of how to work less and get more for his work, and the capitalist wants to force the worker to work as much as possible and make money at his expense.

This means that their interests cannot be reconciled and it is necessary to decide which Arabs you are protecting. In a capitalist society there is no, and cannot be, unity; there are classes and class struggle. This struggle subsides during the general struggle against imperialism, because the question of the country's independence takes precedence. But after achieving independence, the class struggle resurfaces with renewed energy and the communists take part in this struggle as representatives of workers, peasants and the productive intelligentsia.

This means that you cannot protect all Arabs at once. I then told Nasser: “Wait, time will guide you. In Egypt, the awareness of the masses is still low, but it will grow as they struggle. You threw your communists in prison, and for them prison is a good school.”

All communists went through this school. Brother of V.I. Lenin, Alexander, was hanged for preparing an assassination attempt on the tsar. And Vladimir Ilyich became the head of the Soviet state.

You, gentlemen, belong to a different social class. I ask you not to be offended by me, because I am sharing with you something that you might not hear from anyone else. I am not acquainted with your communists, but they are intelligent people. I have not met any of them, and if I have to meet with them, I will tell them that you and I drank to the health of the Sudanese people.

  I want to give you another example. During the Civil War, I served in the Red Army and in the city of Krasnodar I met [illegible] whose daughter was married to an artist. So this [illegible] called the communists robbers and argued that in St. Petersburg and Moscow the communists are better than in Krasnodar. We parted ways, and I didn’t know what happened to him. However, on my 60th birthday, I received a congratulatory telegram from him. He now works as a theater director in Chelyabinsk and probably became a communist, although he used to consider communists to be robbers, just as you, gentlemen, consider your communists in Sudan to be robbers.

Let us ask Cde. Malandin where he began his military service. In the tsar’s army. Attained the rank of second lieutenant during the First World War. And during the civil war he became a commissar of a cavalry army battalion in the Kuban region.

I had a friend who, during the civil war, went over to the side of the whites, fought in Kornilov’s army and was killed in a battle. And this man's father was a communist.

I. ABBOUD: We also came from poor families, from workers and fellahs. Therefore, we believe that there will be no second revolution in Sudan.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: I know that you are not capitalists.

I. ABBOUD: The majority of the Sudanese people have rallied around our government. We have successfully improved the living standards of the workers and peasants by constructing people's houses for them at a reasonable fee. We want the people to eat well and therefore we care about the rise of agriculture. Our entire society is united by one goal – the development of the country's economy. We have established a new political system, a system without parliament. We have no major contradictions between classes.

We believe that things are going well in Sudan. We have informed our citizens that constructive criticism towards the government is welcome if it serves the country's interests. 

We are aware that our people are supporting us in our endeavors, and it is thanks to this support that we will be able to uplift the economic condition of Sudan. We are hopeful that within five years, the positive outcomes of our work will be apparent for all to see.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: We are prepared to collaborate with you and offer assistance in any way possible.

I. ABBOUD: Thank you very much. We strive to utilize the resources of our country to create jobs for all citizens, since we still have unemployed people.

We have transferred ownership of most of the land and railwaysto the state, and we are in the process of establishing state-owned banks and enterprises. In the future, all industrial enterprises in Sudan will be owned by the state.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: This is all very good, but be careful, you might end up with communism.

I. ABBOUD: We believe that this approach is socialist.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: Currently, there is a lot of discussion about the socialist approach to development. Recently, the Prime Minister of Somalia, Shermarke, visited the Soviet Union and left a positive impression on us. He shared that Somalia, as well as Guinea, Mali, and other countries, plan to develop along the socialist path.

I. ABBOUD: Our system does not have any theory.

KHEIR: In Sudan, the state controls land, transportation routes, banks, hospitals and schools. We are establishing agricultural cooperatives that differ from collective farms but are no longer feudal farms. We are unsure of what to name them.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: You are telling me interesting things that I didn't know about. We should instruct our ambassador to Sudan, whom we value and respect, to send us the necessary information on these issues.

KHEIR: According to our law, private landowners are only allowed to sell their land to the state.

FARID: According to our state law, land is private property, however, if a public enterprise or institution is built on it, the state may seize the land from the owner by paying an appropriate fee.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: This is a good start, but it is only the first step.

MAJID AHMED: We have created a 7-year economic development program. While it may not be comparable to your grandiose plan, we allocate 10% of our country's total budget annually to it. We hope to improve the living standards of our people in cooperation with the Soviet Union. We have approached you to agree practically, rather than just on paper, on expanding our trade ties. Two years of trade experience with the Soviet Union has convinced us that increasing trade exchanges can only be achieved on the basis of economic and technical cooperation. And the words that we just heard from you, Mr. Khrushchev, make us believe that establishing such cooperation is possible.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: I am glad that you came and that you have faith in us and we in you. That is the only reason why our conversation is so friendly. I took the liberty of discussing our communist principles with you. I assure you, gentlemen, that if I did not trust you, I would have kept within strictly official boundaries. Now we will know each other better, and this is a good thing.

MAJID AHMED: The great thing is to know each other better.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: We now understand you better, we know more about the situation in Sudan.

We never interfere in the internal affairs of other countries and prohibit our people to do so. Take, for example, our relations with Afghanistan. The Afghan-Soviet border is 2,000 km long, but we have never had any border conflicts. I have visited Afghanistan twice and received the king and prime minister of Afghanistan in Moscow three times. A large number of our specialists work in Afghanistan and we have received no complaints about them from Afghans. We have discovered gas, oil and other mineral resources there and have been providing Afghanistan with great economic assistance, which they badly need. I have developed very good personal relationships with both the King of Afghanistan and their Prime Minister. This demonstrates that good neighborly relations can exist between a monarchy and a socialist state. This means that, despite different social systems, we can be friends.

At the same time, we have very poor relations with Iran, who is caught in America's trap. However, I am convinced that the Iranians will eventually overthrow their Shah. It is only a matter of time.

Now allow me, gentlemen, to express to you, as our friends, some of our criticisms of Sudan. We appreciate the general direction of your government's policy. I mean Sudan's policy on such issues as disarmament, banning nuclear weapons tests, and the fight against colonialism. But we criticized you, not publicly, but internally, in the Soviet Union, for your position regarding the Congo.

The colonialists killed Lumumba. He was not a communist and did not even have any strong political convictions. He was a black man who despised the colonialists with every fiber of his being and fought against them. But at the same time, he was a political fool, lacked a clear direction and clear system of views, although he was an excellent speaker and an honest person. Hatred can never replace political convictions. If he had survived, the imperialists would have trained him in political warfare.

We sent cars and planes to Congo, but Lumumba was inexperienced, failed to understand the situation and became a victim of the colonialists. The only way we could help Congo was only through Sudan.

I am well informed, not through our ambassador in Sudan, but from other sources about the American pressure on your government. I’ll tell you, gentlemen, frankly: I know when and who came to Mr. Abboud and the Minister of Foreign Affairs and what they said. Now, I do not wish to go into the details of this issue. I will tell you in confidence:

Some African countries proposed that we send our planes carrying weapons for the Congo through your territory without the consent of the Sudanese government. Sudan, as we know, does not have flight detection radar installations. I don’t know if you have the means to shoot down planes, but we refused to fly, as we cannot fly over foreign territory without permission. We strongly object to this proposal and do not want to violate the rights of others, as it may damage our image.

We asked for your permission to allow our planes to fly over, but you were too keen to maintain neutrality and refused to give us permission. The British and Americans warned you that if you gave us permission, the Congo would become a communist country and threaten Sudan. As a result of your refusal, Lumumba was deprived of help and the imperialists killed him. Gizenga has no weapons and is in a very difficult position.

You complied with the U.N. decision to provide assistance to the Congo only through its bodies. What happened as a result? The Belgians armed mercenary gangs, but the U.N. “did not see this.” In the meantime, the legitimate government of the Congo, the government of Gizenga, cannot receive your assistance. Subjectively, you were honest people, but objectively you contributed to the murder of Lumumba.

If you pretended that you did not know about the flights of our planes, we would send medical supplies and food to the Congo, and if guns and ammunition accidentally ended up in the boxes, then we would take responsibility for this, and you would have nothing to do with it.

I. ABBOUD: We complied with the U.N. decision and did not allow the British and Americans to put any pressure on us.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: You showed honesty and did not allow us to pass through because of the U.N. decision. But the imperialists supplied their mercenaries with weapons. Who did your honesty help? The imperialists will kill their own father for money. If they gain a foothold in the Congo, it will be worse for you. There are no communists in the Congo. Lumumba was not a communist, and Gizenga is not a communist. I must tell you that the Emperor of Ethiopia approached the issue of the Congo more correctly and provided assistance to Gizenga.

We could send our planes through Egypt and Sudan. We [could] officially declare that we are carrying medical supplies and food, and you would give permission for our planes to fly over. We would bring (by mistake) machine guns for Gizenga [to be used] against the colonialists. If I were you, I would have given the permission. Our planes were already prepared to fly. Nasser agreed to let them through, but you did not grant your permission. Then we decided against sending the planes. You acted honestly and we acted honestly, but the imperialists benefited from our honesty. Therefore, it appears that neither of us showed proper understanding. I have not spoken about this to anyone, but I consider it my duty to tell you our point of view.

If you think about it and allow our planes through, then the situation in the Congo will be completely different. The majority of the people and the parliament support the Gizenga government, but it has no weapons, while their enemies are armed with machine guns and artillery.

We have good relations with France, but I honestly told De Gaulle that our sympathies are with the Algerian people, but I did not tell him that we have helped and will help the Algerians. Do you condemn us for helping Algeria? Can you stay calm when Arabs are being killed? Let us help Congo together!

I cannot deny and will tell you honestly that 7 years ago, when Yemen requested our help against the British, we provided them with such help. The British found out about this. During my visit to London, the British Foreign Secretary told me that a little bird whispered in his ear about our help in Yemen against the British. In response I told the minister that two birds whispered to me about the British military assistance to Iran and Turkey against the Soviet Union. The minister was unable to refute this and remained silent.

We gave Yemen rifles, machine guns, and tanks. The Crown Prince of Yemen, Al-Badr, visited the Soviet Union twice. We have built a seaport for Yemen. Is it possible to call Imam Ahmed and Al-Badr communists or make them communists?

We help the Yemenis because they are defending their independence, and we do this openly.

We provided Egypt with submarines, tanks, planes, artillery and thereby helped the Egyptians during the triple aggression in 1956. Israel seized some of the weapons Egypt received from us and arranged an exhibition of trophies. We were not intimidated by this and will not be. We help Cuba defend its independence and do it openly. Why can the U.S. have its military base in Cuba? Don't we have the right to help Fidel Castro?

You must understand, gentlemen, that the U.N. cannot help the peoples of colonial countries. Take, for instance, the situation in Algeria. The Algerians have been fighting for their independence for over six years now, yet the U.N. is powerless to assist them, because the U.N. is headed by the imperialist powers – the USA, England and France. Look what is happening in Angola. Western countries do not want to help the people of Angola since Portugal is their military ally.

We are honest people and strictly comply with the U.N. resolutions, but these resolutions belong in the toilet.

Now it is not too late to help the Congo and kick out the colonialists from there. This will be of serious assistance to the peoples of Algeria, Angola and other colonial countries. Your position on the Congolese issue essentially strengthens the position of the colonialists.The U.N. resolution on the Congo was adopted in the interests of the imperialists so that the Soviet Union would not be able to provide assistance to the Congolese people. History will judge you, gentlemen, for carrying out the robbers' resolution. I couldn’t care less about this resolution, and you shouldn’t care about it, either. President Nasser understands this, but you do not understand, you yourself freed your country from the colonialists but you do not help others. If you disclose the contents of our conversation when you return to Khartoum, I will not keep it against you because everything I said is the truth. You can do as you please – it is your business. I will keep repeating everything I said until the colonialists leave the Congo, and they won’t leave there by themselves.

Help us, and we will give Gizenga weapons, food, and medical supplies. Then colonialism would weaken throughout Africa. The U.N. has already passed a resolution to eliminate the colonial system. This resolution is the main one, so implement it, because the war against the colonialists is a holy war. Give us permission and we will help Gizenga! The imperialists armed the bandit Tshombe, but Gizenga, who defends the freedom of his country, cannot receive weapons. We only request your permission for our planes to fly over. You can say that this is a humane thing because you consider it your duty to help the Congolese people. Well, if there is a box of weapons on the plane, what can you do? If you wish, we can give you weapons and you can help Congo by taking action yourself, if it’s more convenient for you to do so.

You cannot serve God and not offend the devil at the same time. Let's serve God, because God is independence, while colonialism is the devil. We need weapons against the colonialists. Let us help the Congolese people. Think about this!

I. ABBOUD: We do not intend to argue with your opinion, but we have a question to ask. We have fought against the imperialists for a long time. Sudan is a small state, lacking the resources to shoot down other countries' planes. If we allow such a big country as Russia, to fly over Sudan to provide assistance to the Congo through Sudanese territory, then the Americans and the British will demand the same permission from us. What can we do in this situation?

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: The Americans and British are already flying to the Congo, bypassing your territory. The Belgians fly there too, that is enough. We have no sea access, so we can only fly to the Congo through your territory.

I. ABBOUD: The USA and England have bases in our neighboring countries, for example in Aden. If their planes fly from these bases, what action should we take?

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: Why should they fly, they have more convenient ways. And you must protest against flights that violate your sovereignty.

I. ABBOUD: The Americans and British may demand permission from us under the pretext of providing medical supplies and food to the people of the Congo.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: Grant permission to England and the USA, informing them of Gizenga seeking aid from Sudan. The imperialists have weapons in the Congo; they have already armed their agents with them to their teeth. If you allow planes from England and the USA to fly over, it will not change anything. But if you allow us, the situation in the Congo will change drastically.

KHEIR: If you provide weapons, it will lead to a civil war and bloodshed in the Congo, since the West supports one side and you support the other. What service will we render to the cause of freedom and to the people who have lost their lives in the war?

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: What you are doing now is direct aid to the colonialists, they will reward you with a medal for this, because you are depriving the freedom fighters of weapons.

Take Laos, for example. There was a neutralist government in power led by Souvanna Phouma, whose policies were not aligned with those of the United States. The Americans organized direct intervention in the affairs of Laos through Thailand. President Kennedy himself admitted that the events in Laos were the work of the Americans. Souvanna Phouma requested our assistance. We provided him with all the necessary resources to defeat the invading forces. Currently, peace talks are ongoing in Geneva to resolve the issue in Laos, and Souvanna Phouma is the Prime Minister. If someone has trouble using their noodles, it takes a good kick in the butt to put the brain back in place.

Now the USA has declared that they support neutrality. And we also support the neutrality of Laos. The same thing could happen in the Congo. Why cannot the parliament be convened there? Because the parliament supports Gizenga, the United States is aware of this and opposes its convocation. Therefore, it is essential to provide assistance to the parliament and the legitimate government, that is, to Gizenga. Such assistance is entirely legitimate from a moral perspective too, because we are helping enslaved Negros drive out the colonialists. Only yesterday you were a colonial people, and today you are objectively helping the colonialists. It is up to you. We will not violate your sovereignty. We can reach an agreement with you face to face as follows: you do not give us official permission to fly [over], but you do not notice our planes. Think about it. You can provide good help not only to the Congo but also to Algeria. You might recall that during the Suez crisis, England and France halted the hostilities 22 hours after receiving our note; however, they completely ignored the U.N. decisions.

You are an honest person, Mr. Abboud, but the colonialists are taking advantage of your honesty. What is needed against a robber is not words, but a stick. We provide assistance to Yemen, UAE, and Algeria and are ready to support you in case of any difficulty. But the U.N. opposes such assistance because it still serves the robbers. We have submitted relevant proposals to the U.N., but if our proposals are not accepted, then we will choose the resolutions that are in the interests of colonial peoples and fight with weapons if bad decisions are made.

We request your permission to assist the people of the Congo by passing through your territory. We are not pursuing any economic benefits in the Congo. How can the Congo help us when Gizenga does not even have the funds to pay for our assistance? We do not demand that Gizenga establishes communist rule in the Congo. We want the liberation of peoples from under the yoke of the colonialists. And the only way to help the Congo is with weapons. If they say thank you for our help, that is fine; if they do not, we will not take offense. 

I. ABBOUD: We understand well the points you made and will study this issue at a government meeting upon returning to Khartoum.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: In this case, I pray to God that he will help you act with wisdom and make the right decision. You will go down in history and all honest people will remember you with gratitude. We can give you weapons and you, on your own behalf, will help others, but only those who are fighting against the colonialists. We are helping Imam Ahmed against the British who are supplying weapons to the tribes against the legitimate government. Morality that serves the interests of the enemies of the people is not true morality. We believe it is moral to support a friend in their struggle for independence. What would you say if we began to assist France in the war against the Algerian people? During my visit to Paris, De Gaulle introduced me to some African Negros who claimed that they were living well under French rule. However, I am aware of the fact that the opinion in Africa is different. The voice of Africa, and not of the paid traitors, is what is important for me. Our moral duty is to support the peoples. Let us help the Congo together and people will remember your nobility for many years. I am telling you this not as a communist, but as an anti-colonialist. We want to support the peoples against the colonialists – England, USA, France, and Belgium. It will go down in history that the Russians wanted to help the Congo, but the Sudan's leader did not show understanding. Let something different go down in history!

I. ABBOUD: We understand this issue well and appreciate your honesty.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: Gentlemen, do you have any questions for me? Regarding the economic assistance to Sudan, we are willing to provide you with help, but perhaps not in the amount you requested. Let us start and see how it goes. I hope this will not be our last meeting. In Moscow, we will discuss all matters related to the economic assistance.

  I. ABBOUD: This is how we understand the issue. Let your country review our needs, and upon returning to Moscow, we can discuss possibilities for economic and technical cooperation.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: I must tell you that that we were impressed by your modesty and will carefully consider your requests.

Let us develop trade opportunities. You have a great potential for this. Sudan has a lot of livestock, which we could potentially show interest in. We are already providing great assistance to Cuba. When the United States refused to buy Cuban sugar, we bought it in large quantities, even though we do not need sugar and Cuban sugar is currently in our warehouses. I told President Kennedy: "Your policy towards Cuba will make Castro a communist, he will have no other choice."

We, Mr. Abboud, wish your country well. If you need anything, please let us know through your ambassador or ours. If you or your friends want to come visit us again, come, we will be delighted to welcome you. If you are not afraid of being friends with communists, then let us be friends.

I. ABBOUD: If we were afraid of this, we would not come to your country. We came with pure intentions to develop friendship and expand trade relations. We were guided by these same thoughts.

N.S. KHRUSHCHEV: Very good. I wish you a good rest, health and all the best to you, Mr. Chairman, your colleagues and the Sudanese people.

I. ABBOUD: Thank you for your warm welcome and hospitality. May good relations and mutual understanding develop between our countries. We hope that the negotiations in Moscow will bring good results.

  I wish health and happiness to you personally and success and prosperity to the great Soviet people.

During the farewell, Abboud invited Cde. N.S. Khrushchev to visit Sudan. N.S. Khrushchev gratefully accepted this invitation.

The conversation lasted 4.5 hours.

The conversation was recorded by A.A. Baranochnikov.

/Signature/ A. Baranochnikov