Record of a Conversation of the Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR, Cde. N.S. Khrushchev, and the Head of the Brazilian Trade Mission, Chief of the Economics and Trade Department of the MFA of Brazil, Paulo Leão de Moura

Record of a Conversation 

of the Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR, Cde. N.S. Khrushchev, and the Head of the Brazilian Trade Mission, Chief of the Economics and Trade Department of the MFA of Brazil, Paulo Leão de Moura,

which took place on 3 May 1961.

Present at the conversation:

On the Soviet side: Cdes. N.S. Patolichev and N.I. Kuzmin’sky

On the Brazilian side: Paulo Amélio do Nascimento Silva, member of the delegation, and Deputy Chief of the European Section of the Department of Economics and Trade of the MFA. 

Leão de Moura stated that it is a big honor for him to be received by such a great person as His Excellency Khrushchev, and that he deeply values this honor, and is very grateful to Khrushchev for his time. 

N.S. Khrushchev said that he is happy to meet and get acquainted with the representative of Brazil. 

Leão de Moura reported that before he left for Moscow to attend the negotiations on the Brazil-Soviet Trade Agreement between the Brazil and the Soviet Executive Commissions, he was received twice by Quadros, the President of Brazil, who gave him the relevant instructions in connection with the visit of Leão de Moura to the USSR. Essentially, these Presidential instructions charged Leão de Moura with two important missions, and specifically one mission of an open nature, and a political mission, of a secret nature. 

The first mission, Leão de Moura continued, has an economic and trade nature and is already known to the Soviet side from the document that was forwarded to it by the Brazilian side. The Brazilian government attaches great importance to trade with the Soviet Union, and quoting the President, he personally “considers trade with the USSR of vital importance for the development of Brazilian economy.” President Quadros and Brazilian government understand that trade between the two countries has been quite limited and they wish to increase it not only in absolute quantities, but also to expand assortment and range of goods. This is specifically what [we] had in mind, added Leão de Moura, when [we] put together the document, presented to the Soviet side. The Brazilian government believes that trade with the USSR could very well reach the level of trade with such countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia, and even exceed this level. 

As to our second mission, continued Leão de Moura, it has a secret political nature. President Quadros tasked Leão de Moura with explaining the reason for this secrecy. Due to the existing circumstances of which he will talk later, the President did not find it possible to disclose this to anyone other than the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Brazil, and his deputy, the MFA’s Secretary General, as well as Leão de Moura himself and diplomat Amélio do Nascimento Silva, who is present at this meeting. Moreover, Leão de Moura continued, no one else, even in the Brazilian delegation itself, knows about the visit to N.S. Khrushchev. Naturally, everyone will learn about it soon, however Leão de Moura will not report anything about the part of the conversation which pertains to the second, political, mission with which he arrived. 

The Government of Brazil and President Quadros, are devoting much attention to the development of the foreign relations of the country. N.S. Khrushchev may be aware from Quadros’ speeches prior to and after the elections that the President firmly adheres to the principle of establishing diplomatic relations with all countries who desire this. The Brazilian government knows very well what an important role the Soviet Union plays in the international life and what an important place it occupies in the world. We also hope, said Leão de Moura, that N.S. Khrushchev and members of the Soviet Government know how important a place Brazil occupies among the Western Hemisphere countries, especially among the Latin-American countries, and what is more, not only as a big market but also as a political power. Brazil is the biggest country in Latin America, both in terms of territory and in terms of populations. The positions of other countries also depend on the position of Brazil. However, Leão de Moura continued, we are realists and we understand perfectly well that along with the proponents of improving the relations with the Soviet Union, there are also opponents of it. There are forces who have approved severing diplomatic relations with the USSR and they believe that the reasons that caused this severance back then, still exist today. 

Among the opponents of establishing diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union there are also pessimists who believe that restoring these relations will not create great possibilities for the development of Brazilian-Soviet trade. 

President Quadros and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Brazil absolutely do not share the aforementioned viewpoint of the opponents of the diplomatic relations with the USSR. 

There are also proponents and opponents of establishing diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union in the Brazilian Congress. However, the Government of Brazil will be happy and content to establish these relations, if two prerequisites are satisfied.

The first such condition is the public declaration by the Soviet Government of their wish to restore diplomatic relations with Brazil. It would be quite enough to publish a small announcement about this in the Soviet press, which could be forwarded overseas through telegraph agencies and especially to Brazil. It would be good if there was some sort of a reaction to the President’s message which Leão de Moura just presented to N.S. Khrushchev. 

The second condition is the successful completion of trade negotiations which are currently taking place between the Brazilian and the Soviet delegations. By wishing a successful completion of these negotiations the Brazilian side is not demanding anything special.  Brazilians want to increase trade between the two countries and are asking N.S. Khrushchev to exercise his influence on this issue. 

Should these two prerequisites, these two conditions, be fulfilled, the President will be prepared to restore diplomatic relations and to exchange ambassadors. The fulfillment of these two conditions is necessary for the President, who has to create a certain favorable public opinion around this issue. Leão de Moura inquired whether he can present N.S. Khrushchev with a draft press release in which he is respectfully asking N.S. Khrushchev to review and inform [him] of his opinion. 

N.S. Khrushchev accepted the draft [press] release and, after it was translated for him, said that at the first glimpse the text of this press release sounds acceptable to him. 

N.S. Khrushchev informed that he is happy to get acquainted with Leão de Moura and is grateful for the views he expressed. 

We very highly value foreign policy activities of President Quadros, N.S. Khrushchev continued. We are pleased with the first steps [he took] in this high post. Frankly speaking, in many Western countries it so happens that during the election campaign the candidates say one thing, but after being elected, they do something completely different. We are noting with satisfaction that your President chose a different path. Not only did he not go back on his pre-election foreign policy promises, but he is actively implementing them. It does the President credit. We, and I in particular, are often reproached by the West for violating diplomatic subtleties, though in reality it reflects their helpless anger due to the fact that we steer our independent line regardless of anything. I am pleased to give credit to your President as a reasonable person. 

Now on trade. We are ready to develop trade with all countries by all means, even with the countries who belong to military groups directed against us. We actively trade with many countries, including Japan, Britain, France, Italy, West Germany, and others. Our portfolio is full of proposals. These countries are prepared, in addition to already placed orders, to fulfil our other, new orders, and we sometimes limit them due to financial considerations. Many countries extend credit lines to us in order to incentivize our purchases. This is beneficial both to them and to us. 

We would like to also trade with the United States of America, but they are still not willing to; they are still afraid that by trading with us they will be helping us to develop science and technology. But in the meantime our spaceships fly in space, even with a human on board, while their rockets fall into the ocean. However, I have to say that I am far from thinking that we do everything well and the US does everything badly. We could help each other a great deal. We have opportunities to be mutually beneficial. Recently I read an article published in one of the British magazines. The British, from whom we learned at one time, buy some of our machine tools, and specifically machine tools produced at the Moscow Krasny Proletary Plant in Moscow. It turned out that the cost of producing these machine tools to us is half the cost for the Brits, and they themselves are explaining it correctly– the Soviet Union is such a large country that it mass-produces machine tools, which allows it to make them cheaper, especially with automation. 

We are for developing trade, a mutually beneficial trade, adjusted for the needs of the trading parties. And in our trade with you we are also going to adjust to your demands. It is not difficult for us to do. We don’t have avalanches [of products], we have a planned economy. We produce what we plan. We don’t, and we can’t, have overproduction and therefore we also don’t have crises. We produce just the amount we need. 

In this regard I would like to express my opinion on the benefits of trading with us. We do not fear the development of industry in Brazil. We welcome this development. The US, on the contrary, - they don’t want and won’t help you, and other countries to also develop domestic industry. They are afraid of competition for their own goods. They profit from not developing industry in other countries. But we are not afraid of competition. We can trade with everyone and we are not afraid of the development of industry in any of the countries. We are a socialist state and we have a planned economy. If [other countries] do not trade with us, we will produce everything we need ourselves. We have 220 million people, we are rich in natural resources, we have oil, coal, nickel, titanium, natural gas, etc. We can grow just about anything, save maybe bananas. 

I repeat, we are not afraid of competition. I will give you India as an example. Americans and the British were looking for oil and gas deposits in India. They didn’t find it because they were looking specifically not to find [them]. But our specialists found [them]. 

If you are not afraid to deal with a socialist state, then trade with us, and the trade will be mutually beneficial and will develop quickly. We are regular people, and only some try to depict us as monsters with horns on our heads. 

We want to trade but to trade on mutually beneficial basis. We don’t have dollars or [pounds] sterling, but we have working hands, raw materials, and goods. In order to buy we need to sell. As to dollars and [pounds] sterling, we have been living without them for a long time and living quite well. 

We welcome the development of diplomatic and friendly relations between countries. I would like you to pass to President Quadros my best wishes and tell him that I value his intelligence and courage. 

Brazil is a rich country, and not only because of its agriculture. Brazil has rich mineral deposits and natural resources which need to be developed. Brazil can play a very important role in Latin America. We are happy to welcome you as the representative of President Quadros. 

Leão de Moura expressed sincere gratitude for N.S. Khrushchev’s warm words towards President Quadros, as well as for the kind expressions of wisdom which he will gladly pass to Quadros. I am especially pleased with this, added Leão de Moura, since I voted for the President. 

Leão de Moura thanked N.S. Khrushchev for the kind wishes with respect to the development of trade and jokingly noted that he hopes that the Soviet Union will buy not just bananas in Brazil. 

N.S. Khrushchev said that the Soviet Union, naturally, is ready to buy other goods in Brazil on a reciprocal basis such as coffee, vegetable oils, raw hides, and other things, for example, cotton, which we are buying in UAR but could be buying in Brazil also. 

Leão de Moura said that he is quite glad that there is a possibility of a real expansion of the trade with the USSR. As to the cooperation with the US, he, Leão de Moura, maintains a somewhat different point of view than the one N.S. Khrushchev expressed. 

The relations between the US and us, says Leão de Moura, are not always cloud-free, but if we quarrel, these quarrels are amicable and familial. The fact that we go to other countries with friendly missions is not because Brazil has bad relations with its neighbor, the US. We are for peaceful, neighborly relations with everyone. We are for coexistence. 

N.S. Khrushchev said that this is exactly the position the Soviet Union maintains in its relations with all countries. 

When I talk about the US, continues N.S. Khrushchev, I am simply analyzing the real state of affairs. I genuinely want our country to be friends with the US. I once said this to Eisenhower and to Dillon. I am for the development of trade between us. 

But apparently the culprit is, said N.S. Khrushchev smiling, the desire to strangle us by any means.  They haven’t been able to strangle us in 40 years, but they can’t see that it is absolutely impossible to do. We hope that the new Kennedy government will change the attitude towards the USSR, and will promote the development of trade in particular. This will be beneficial for everyone. We are for friendship, added N.S. Khrushchev. I told the Americans, let’s be friends. We are ready to be friends with you and with your friends. So you too have to be prepared to be friends with us and with our friends. 

Leão de Moura said that he is happy that N.S. Patolichev is present at the meeting, and that he might hope that the Soviet delegation will receive corresponding instructions to develop trade. Leão de Moura took note of everything N.S. Khrushchev said, and he is confident that the Soviet delegation will also take note of this, and therefore he has no doubt of the successful completion of trade negotiations. 

President Quadros told me, stated Leão de Moura, that if these two conditions are accomplishable, he will be able to restore diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union by the end of the year. 

N.S. Khrushchev confirmed that both of the conditions are accomplishable. As to the timeframe for the establishing diplomatic relations, he doesn’t want to commit to any deadlines. Brazil possibly has its own difficulties, which the USSR does not have. We, N.S. Khrushchev noted jokingly, are like an elephant, and someone from time to time would sink their teeth in it trying to stop it, but it just shrugs off the obstacle, and, without stopping, firmly continues on its way. However, if you have your own difficulties, you will decide on your own when the most convenient time will be to bring up the issue of establishing diplomatic relations with us. 

Leão de Moura assured N.S. Khrushchev that Brazil will have no difficulties if both conditions are fulfilled, and in this case, as the President stated, relations will be restored by the end of the year. 

N.S. Khrushchev asked Leão de Moura, as a clarification, what needs to follow the publication of the aforementioned press release in the press. Will any actions need to be taken by the Soviet Union? 

Leão de Moura assured N.S. Khrushchev that no other [actions] need to be taken. 

After the successful completion of the negotiations, he says, I will telegraph everything to my government and it will be much easier for President Quadros to expedite the issue of restoring diplomatic relations. He is ready to accomplish this by the end of the year and, in Leão de Moura’s opinion, the President will send a corresponding telegram to N.S. Khrushchev personally. The only request is to please keep all this a secret. 

N.S. Khrushchev said that apart from publication of the press release, no other issues from among those discussed today will be publicly disclosed. I asked for clarification, N.S. Khrushchev remarked smiling, because I don’t like to be in debt and wanted to know whether all obligations will be completed on our part after the press release is published.

Leão de Moura said that now is incumbent on the Brazilian side, which will be in debt to the Soviet side, to take the next step. 

N.S. Khrushchev asked that his best wishes be passed to the President and wished Leão de Moura personally every success and health. 

recorded by                 N. Kuzmin’sky